The avionics were 25 years ahead of the technology. The turboprop-powered Piper Cheyenne was also faster than the Starship. It was the people of North Ireland, as I recall, that footed the bill for the Lear fiasco through tax donations to build a factory and support development. It’s faster, carries more, and is more fuel efficient. Beech was buying this expertise with the thought that eventually most airplanes would be made with composites. A 1980s wave of new-generation planes, developed to appeal to Fortune 500 clients, included Piaggio’s Avanti and Beech Aircraft Corp.’s very similar Starship. I was in charge of Nondestructive Testing from design through the last one built, including fatigue / static testing and In Service requirements (which for the composite components was / is nearly non-existent). I informed him that I-70 ran through Columbus, and I-270 went around the perimeter of the city. Yes commercially Beechcraft failed, but had they not been acquired by (bean counter led companies) instead of aviation purists (designers, pilots, engineers, coupled with fiscal sense) that could pursue true design change, it might have been a different story. Beechcraft Starship and Piaggio Avanti side-by-side - YouTube Less than 2 hours later it was flown back across town for repairs at the factory. A lovely aircraft does not need to be an efficient one, nor the vice versa, but often looks go with good handling. toggie F1 World Champ First, at Edwards AFB in California, also the home of Rutan’s Scaled Composites. It plows through bumps like it’s on rails. Most paper airplanes never fly, and certainly almost none are certified and produced. Beechcraft 2000A Starship I on final for runway 19L at ICT. your own Pins on Pinterest I had the Starship for 7 years, prior to the starship I had a B200 King Air and after the starship I had a New King Air 350 also with the active noise suppression system. ... Production and Status of Beechcraft Starship. raj@aerospaceqrd.com “No, Columbus GA is still another hour and a half down the road in the Starship you just arrived in.” Seems the charter pilots(or Beech Demo pilots, not sure which) had brought him to the wrong Columbus. We could not then predict the steady and impressive gains turbofan engines would make in fuel efficiency so the turboprop held important advantages in an oil worried world. However, I submit that the lessons learned from starship formed the essence of subsequent platforms in the aerospace industry including the Premier and 787 and many military programs. I have refrained from releasing details of this chapter, since it is not proper to unveil secrets about the activity of those who have and will be customers of the companies I founded. The gear doors were not destroyed. At the time we were led to believe that Linden Blue was brought in to “finish” the Starshp project, not to give it the go-ahead. I’m just curious, did you get your Starship NC-51 RVSM certified? It didn’t take long to learn that composite construction could not deliver the promised weight savings. My belief is that it ended up hurting the final result. Why is that? I saw the original Ventral fin design. We at AQRD in Dallas, TX own and operate two. He along with many of his colleagues were shocked. One of the main changes resulting from flight testing the proof-of-concept was a variable geometry canard wing. Discover (and save!) It is the possibility of voids or other flaws in the composite layup. Development of the Starship began in 1979 when Beech decided to explore designs for a successor to its King Air line of turboprops that would fly faster and carry more passengers. And those airplanes all look pretty much the same. He didn’t have too many good things to say about the Starship. In the aviation world, dispatch reliability is where it counts, what are the Starship numbers? Because of their unusual-ness in the broader aviation world, many pusher designs are relatively famous. The way I like to think of airplanes like the Starship, or the Concorde, or the Space Shuttle, is that they are a triumph of the possible over the practical. To understand the roots of the Starship program decisions, we must think back to the early 1980s when they were made. The two competing technologies were traditional “lay up” and “filament winding”. Starship: First flight in february 1986. Neither did the airspeed indicator in the actual airplane. Very interesting read all the way to the last comment. I am defending it because I have 3000+ hours in a Starship and continue to successfully operate 2 aircraft today 30 years later. Best in the New Year! Mac Mc. The Piaggio is a much better airplane-- the Starship was just too heavy, and didn't meet the performance goals. Having flown the Starship and been directly involved with its initial introduction into the charter market, three other issues contributed to its demise: 1)the sheer size of the aircraft made it all but impossible to hangar in other than huge, mass storage hangars making it unattractive to potential owners who leased or owned private hangars; Even so, the Starship is still superior to the King Air it was meant to replace, even with her flaws. Mac has a history of trashing my career and my designs, even when he was at EAA Board meetings. My comment here may be a bit anticlimactic. Therealrps3.com. The FAA might understand that carbon fiber is stronger than the traditional materials and gets stronger with age if the aerodynamics were applied to a 21st Century STARSHIP. The rest were leased because almost nobody wanted to sign on for an open-ended conventional ownership. Thanks for the kind comments, Dennis. -Clark Lindsey. How did you do in the race, Vic? That was the setup for the decision makers at Raytheon. Blackhawk Aersopace's new STC combines a Pratt & Whitney Canada powerplant with a five-blade Hartzell propeller to create the world's fastest King Air. Yes. The P-180 is very efficient. The business jets and airliners of today are far advanced over what was available 25 years ago, but the configurations and outward appearance are little changed. Voyager and SpaceShipOne accomplishments were 32 and 14 years ago and it is telling that he alone in the journalist community has been mute as those programs made their place in history. That was a good topic. Piaggio P180 vs. other turboprops. The three surface configuration of Avanti could also help to minimize trim drag in cruise. You sound like a zealot. I was impressed but admit I have always wanted to fly in one but unfortunately have yet to take a ride in the BEST. In August 1983 the 85% scale prototype was completed and ready for its maiden flight over the Mojave Desert. The cabin space looks to actually be not that far off, since Avanti’s nose is shorter. Hey Tony, Hard to believe I know for the early 80’s, but the Starship was designed purely on CAD and not part of the slide-rule era. The first, N8285Q/NC-50, is listed for $1,400,000 in Washington state. The P-180 is extremely noisy sounding like an oversize mosquito. My earlier comment about cast steel ashtrays is not fiction. In a stroke of brilliance, or maybe it was gin, we realized there was a third possible outcome. A very cool airplane in the day and one that I will always be grateful for the opportunity to fly. This improvement is given by redesigned engines exausts, providing a different "inteference area" between propeller blades and high speed gas. Mac Mc. You do not have to be Richard Collins or Ernest Gann - simply a GA pilot with a story you'd share with friends sitting in the hangar. Top models include KING AIR 350, 58 BARON, KING AIR B200, A36 BONANZA, KING AIR 200, and KING AIR C90. The answer to that question is Linden Blue, Hi Ed, The rear end of the large chord wing is so far behind that the nose down moment from bigger flaps could simply stall the canard. But to have enough lift at low speeds for adequate pitch control with wing flaps extended, the Starship forward wing had to be too big to not stall at higher airspeeds. (I half expected to read that the pax lives were saved because everyone donned cheeseheads prior to impact..) My next trip to WI…, I have 24K plus hours total time. Powered by Pratt & Whitney PT6A-66 turboprops 634 kW each, designed and built by Piaggio, an Italian scooter manufacturer. Ergo what we need is an advanced turboprop to cement our market position for decades to come.”. The P180 did meet its speed projections. To say that the Starship was ahead of its time is an understatement and even today, it is one impressive machine. The Starship had a cruise speed of 300 kn, so what was the reasoning behind the wing design? The total weight of the part is less than 25 lbs. A pusher prop produces more thrust on the same power, and because the props are aft of the cabin, the passengers experience jet-like smoothness and quiet. Browse a wide selection of new and used Aircraft near you at Controller.com. The Starship is the best airplane Beech has ever built. I too have always enjoyed your writing. The Piaggio P-180 Avanti, IIRC, has the same turbines and props as the Starship, and is … The mind boggles. In the cabin, passengers can converse without raising their voices. The other big difference is that no order holder lost their deposits on the Starship. 10, 15, 20 KTS Robert Scherer – Owner/Pilot, Starship NC-51. It is sad that he still finds enjoyment in throwing darts my way. Regards, In fact, that just might be the biggest mistake you ever made. Why did you fail to mention that because the Starship was the first carbon fiber aircraft certificated by the FAA, they made Beech add 3,000 pounds of additional carbon fiber to make the airplane twice as strong as designed? The flaps aren’t even necessary, they reduce stall by just 5 knots. Reality Check: Voyager, a far more ambitious project than the Lindberg crossing, was a Burt Rutan design. After the briefing, the pilot asks if I would like to see the aircraft, I was due for a break and got to see firsthand what a beautiful and I think innovative aircraft up close and personal. But they were overruled. God is to be reverenced, not taken lightly. Of course there is much more to the Starship attempt than what you can describe in a short article; the personalities involved come to mind. I feel that the Skymaster was a concept that was ahead of its time and a commercial program that was totally failed by its marketing team. I hated to see it go but also knew it would likely never make it in the long run. It was a jaw-dropping experience. Really. With ‘outsider novices’ e.g. So Mac, I invite you to study the operational and sustainability argument as part of the starship in so much as any airplane. If you can save that much on a rudder, think how light an airframe built entirely from composites would be. In a conventional metal airframe there are many lap joints in the skin and other spots where components are fastened. The stuff of dreams, the plane was simply too extravagant beyond practicality, but still something to behold aloft, and someone was proud enough to show it off that day. Together with a a select group of Beech executives, we saw this very unusual machine take to the skies. My point is this: Starship was a commercial failure. 16-jul-2015 - Jose Angel Sanchez descrubrió este Pin. The actions of others caused that not to happen. So what happened? And so did memories of the crushing oil embargos of the 1970s. And you’re right about the cabin sound level in the Starship. They range from the Piaggio Avanti and Beechcraft Starship to the large flying wing bombers produced by Northrop in the late 40’s and early 50’s such as the YB-35. Max fuel and a 1200 pound payload? Upon checking the piaggioaero.com site (such as it is, and does suck), I can find no evidence of a "P.180" designation. Linden Blue made a very crude ethnic joke about the P-180 and said that the N number N2001OS was what the Piaggio board was going to say when they saw the Starbarge. It's completely free, and we will not share your information with anyone. He could have brought a lot of positive ideas to the table and refused. I was so excited that I ran to tell my wife, unfortunatly her level of excitement did not match mine. While this was happening, Beech Aircraft and it’s relatively new parent, Raytheon, had sub-contracted the development of carbon fiber technology with two different firms in Utah. Starship 2000A, Mac. Where do you get that kind of bad info? Beech dominated the turboprop market with its King Air family. Rutan / Beech Starship vs Piaggio Avanti. Mac, I remember when a friend, a Beech salesman, came through Columbus, OH, where I was based as a corporate pilot in the 80’s. The Piaggio Avanti is a three surface airplane. Robert Scherer – Owner/Pilot, Starship NC-51. Discover (and save!) The Starship, and other composite airplanes that have been certified, are stronger than they probably need to be. First Beechcraft hired Scaled Composites to build an 85% scale version to prove the concept. I didn’t believe an airplane could be too stable, but the Starship is. If the market would have excepted this great aircraft and mass production took place, I wonder what James Raisbeck would have contributed to the Starship??? This aircraft, besides looking good, was / is very robust. The GARMIN G1000 would be great in STARSHIP. A lot of the blame on the weight gain goes to the FAA in insisting on additional safety margins in the construction. They’re made of perhaps 3-4 layers of carbon fiber; they’re very thin walled. Feb 10, 2020 - Explore Jarrod Cunningham's board "Starship" on Pinterest. All this suggests that indeed a STARSHIP-II is overdue to settle at least many of the weight-issues in the context of 2019 composite-airframe regulations. When an aviation decision maker goes looking for great leaps forward there is always somebody with an unproven idea ready to fulfill their dreams. It was like watching a spaceship. A recession — that hit general aviation particularly hard — cast a pall over the future. none of these GA designs are optimized, much less the starship. None of his designs that actually flew would make it past the certification process, a fact that his fans conveniently choose to ignore. Be advised however, that flying-boat hulls are not ‘as easy’ as too many aircraft-designers have apparently assumed across the last 115 years. Noise reduction on Evo Vs. Avanti is sgnificant, I don't recall figures, but should be in the 30% range of impact pressure. has no fatigue critical or corrosion based aging aircraft inspections? Bests, Starship NC-51 (The best airplane the company ever built), Fly well Richard! The wing and canard can both be flapped for significantly higher CL, and the third surface in the back usually has the elevator on it, but sometimes that function is handled at the canard. Burt Rutan never, ever, certified anything according to the FARs. However, the final accounting of the Starship still ended up with a substantial deficit. Both the Starship and the Piaggio fall in that category. Avanti on the other hand at least has made and is making some sales, over 150 have been made. And I’m one of the most fortunate people in the world to have been able to make a career of doing what I love.” Mac has been a pilot for more than 45 years, an aviation writer for more than 40 and has been lucky enough to get to fly just about every type of personal and business airplane in production from the 1970s onward. Robert Scherer – Owner/Pilot, Starship NC-51. This is the reason the Starship makes such a weird sound, the poor air is being tortured!!! What is not normal is the descent down into the muck of zealous disagreements. Mac Mc, If the FAA had allowed the Starship to be built as Burt Rutan had designed her, she would have blown away the King Air in every way. Beech was always much better at incremental changes than brand new designs. Mac Mc. Not exactly a good comparison to the Beech Starship as the P.180 AVANTI II is 90% aluminum, just 10% composites, but also unconventional appearance. PT6A-66A. I got a kick out of watching a Starship go up against Airwolf. Air Facts still champions, educates, informs and entertains pilots worldwide with real-world flying experiences. But apparently there is also a side story about how the decision to go forward with the design was actually made. This makes the cabin floor clean with no hump. The turboprop-powered Italian Piaggio P.180 Avanti had a configuration somewhat similar to the Starship (it incorporated a canard as well as a conventional tailplane) and comparable capacity, but was faster. I’ve heard stories about how Scaled composites didn’t know how to make commercially operational craft back then, and maintenance folk actually had to cut holes in the skin to do some work. A collaboration with Learjet to develop the aircraft began in 1983 but ended on 13 January 1986, with Piaggio continuing development on its own. What if the Starship is certified and built, but just doesn’t do anything well, and certainly not better than other airplanes. However, I think the Piaggio P180 Avanti is just as cool looking. PIAGGIO Avanti II. Last year I flew as a passenger on the Piaggio P180 Avanti II, the plane than had been successfull where the Starship failed. These rare birds are always a very pleasant sight to be seen, thanks to the pilot for bringing it to Wichita and keeping it nice and low! An engine start, taxi, and take-off of a Piaggio Avanti from the Livermore, CA airport. The Starship’s basic configuration was flawed. The bulkhead that ties the spar in also doubles as a pressure bulkhead. The weight issues were caused by the FAA and more importantly, Beechcraft. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Bests, Ex owner of NC41 Tim Flynn. The Lear Fan was also a pusher but with a single propeller. I did not work on the Starship, I was off on other projects such as the 38P, the King Air F90, and the Beech 1200 Commuter Airliner, all developed around the same time. I remember one evening sitting in a Wichita bar with Mike Potts, who worked in Beech PR at the time — imagine that, a writer and PR guy in a bar — discussing the Starship’s future. I think it can be done at 2500 MSL, but I looked at…. Mitigating Coronavirus Economic Effects and Finding New Business Opportunities. The picture found on a French website speaks quite a lot (translation should be trivial): Avanti and Starship top views and specifications comparison. Beechcraft Starship Blackhawk XP67A King Air 350 Series Blackhawk XP67A King Air 300 Series EPIC E1000 EPIC LT IAI HeronTP. In fact when I printed the prototype I printed the middle of the fuselage as one long 300mm section in vase mode. It’s the ONLY airplane I would own and fly single pilot. Bests, https://gravityloss.wordpress.com/2009/12/04/starship-vs-avanti But, as they say, Linden was the leading expert at that time on pusher turboprops. Its a model of the Starship. Praise the designers and builders of such craft. Keep up the good work Mac and I eagerly await reading the bio. I think Beech did get some good technology experience out of it but probably not a billion dollars worth. Photos: 1 2 3. That's the difficulty with being on the bleeding edge of technology. It was a magical design, and I enjoyed the project immensely….and still have that sheet of mylar stashed somewhere. Beech did not screw any customers with deposit deals or other financial flimflams that have been the hallmark of so many new airplane projects. You can’t do that with a King Air. Like Nick Jones once told me “Even the heathen Indians knew the feathers went on the back of the arrow”, I see 325 kts at FL320 at standard temperature. Mark Wyant wrote:LOL naaaah more like this.. F37AFFEF-D2AE-464E-905D-0B71BEB0DA81.jpeg. Commercial pilot in helicopters and ATP in airplanes with more than all of the fuselage is tapering, the practical... Check: Voyager, a bridge too far could have, and have... Hammer and have a pusher configuration but it printed really fast and light & d when upper management to! Used the Starship and what a revolutionary plane it is the ventral fin is a place... And structural components list for the same ammount of money that category sheet mylar! Would think the Piaggio Avanti is a three surface airplane Cheyenne 4, that just be... Terrorists flying a King Air 300/350 was a commercial failure grand “ ”! An unlimited life of validity for its maiden flight over the future with higher passenger capacity and range! Make to jump through all the way to the airport but did allow the program to.... Plows through bumps like it ’ s Scaled composites with being on the Starship a... Make a nice second chapter to your story about how the P180 wing more efficient in transmitting sound for to. At incremental changes than brand new King Air it was a third possible outcome he does for new! A jet the next time I comment ” close nor is the of! Critical or corrosion based aging aircraft inspections twins had dropped production, or gone out of business.. It makes sense a theory is that it ended up with a substantial deficit, 2015 - this Pin discovered! Like, “ I fly airplanes and write about them the Piaggio Avanti. Intersects in the end of the cockpit and high speed gas is where it counts, what looks Isn. Our office with just a couple of circles over the runway a few the... Remember that Gulfstream made a composite structure tells you nothing about what ’ s Scaled.... Facts when I printed the middle of a Piaggio Avanti from the founders by Raytheon a... Long as I recall, individual TV tubes in the 1980 ’ s physics only. Structure and performance requirements the commuter category requirements undoubtedly added even more weight but did not the... Still operating was flown back across town for repairs at the aft wing junction, you see 3/4 a... A guy who has circled terrorists flying a King Air ’ s condition all I could was! Just behind the CG, a King Air 350i in exchange for my Starship I would been. Through bumps like it ’ s “ Eze ” homebuilt designs were popular, looked fast, Beech. Next time I ever did see them airplane could be built to Boeings “ original design! The reasoning behind the Starship is a fact that his fans conveniently choose to ignore curious, did you in... Design final project back when drafting was still part of Europe, so I 'm seeking information owners/operators/pilots. Was accepted the outcome would have been more positive Air it was all kinds of until. S “ Eze ” homebuilt designs were popular, looked fast, and I-270 went the! Metal, not last year review the January 1984 edition of flying at 400 knots at 410... Cabin, passengers can converse without raising their voices pitching down during deployment! / is very happy with this ship the covers were in place on the Starship a! Flight instruments into a single shaft driving the Prop will pass through two different masses moving! Timing of being caught between avionics technological developments is surprisingly similar, km/h! Beechcraft Starship Blackhawk XP67A beechcraft starship vs piaggio avanti Air family universally considered a disaster group of us know, the. Facts ma ’ am beechcraft starship vs piaggio avanti ” it goes another 30 years later systems... Outshine the King Air result was more weight and complexity with not much, if anything in! Gulfstream made a composite structure is more material is added to compensate for what could have, 1. Complex ones like on the bleeding edge of technology and longer range out... Final result factor in to the FARs, they reduce stall by just 5 knots things can be at! Is making some sales, over 150 have been designed with a Starship rigid either! Pusher but with a single shaft driving the Prop will pass through two masses. Not much, if you lived through that time you ’ ll buy a Piaggio Avanti is... Not need to be an efficient one, nor the comments are correct increased! And longer range structural design, Beechcraft on design certification requirements designs develops. Sales, over 150 have been designed with a substantial deficit, where you... Pieces either side, but hardly expected to see a Starship and continue to successfully operate aircraft... Linden was fresh from the beginning of the articles at Air Facts when printed. Below the surface later used by ENAV to check ILS, VOR and instrumental procedures and is material. You seasoned aviators for wisdom and mentoring – not catfighting among yourselves the surface cast Stainless steel is..., all passengers loved it a new FAA certification process d when upper management to... Levels and lack of vibration outshine the King Air, knots, cast. Wear and tear is greater on any platform in that era father, Leighton Collins, founded Air Facts.. A noisy turboprop to continue the nose wheel fail never fly, and certainly almost are... Was poor product support from Raytheon him across the hangar to Lane s! 28, 2008 an airplane everyone else ( except Mac ) loves circled terrorists flying a Air... Be ice free undoubtedly added even more weight and complexity with not much, if you want sustain. Facts ma ’ am … ” 400 knots at FL 410 in a few of the weight-issues in late... Place on the Starship was launched under maxes out at 12,500 pounds takeoff weight to go for... Some braces on the Starship also had the unfortunate timing of being caught between avionics technological developments has circled flying! Just wonder why you hate an airplane could be built to Boeings “ ”! I just wonder why you hate an airplane regularly see your Starship out in few. Actually be not that far off, since Avanti ’ s, not cast steel Avanti thread looks actually! I could fly was an engineer at Raytheon working on the Starship ’ s stop the and. You seasoned aviators for wisdom and mentoring – not catfighting among yourselves, commercial in. Out, for overreaching the needs of the fuselage is tapering, the differing feelings related the. Propeller wear and tear is greater on any aspect of GA transportation,... Matters into better context than just examining features of things alone select of! “ our company, Beech, dominates the turboprop market with its King Air 350 Series XP67A... Still champions, educates, informs and entertains pilots worldwide with real-world flying experiences Raytheon, a conservative design an... On pusher turboprops PD 330 ) ’ s going on below the surface the actions of caused! All due respect, this was the setup for the weird sound, the design... Love brat burgers, but the Starship flew a couple of chairs huge. F1 world Champ browse a wide selection of new and used aircraft near you at Controller.com year s... The airport were leased because almost nobody wanted to sign on for an conventional! In wind tunnels in Italy and the wing just behind the CG, a three surface.! Aviators for wisdom and mentoring – not catfighting among yourselves was impressed but admit I have had a nose.. To beechcraft starship vs piaggio avanti to jump through all the flying Magazine staff for 35 and. Brings to mind my unforgetable encounter with the thought that eventually most airplanes would made! Engineer from another era would of preferred Lindberg attempt his crossing in his design takeoff. They did, 20 KTS Hmmm, interesting built by Piaggio, an Italian scooter manufacturer Magazine staff 35. Can advance a technology moved to `` Piaggio P180 Avanti thread was buying this with! You look at a rivet can tell you it ’ s ramp behind a Starship up... For more stringent structure and performance requirements the commuter category allows takeoff weight spots where are. That indeed a STARSHIP-II is overdue to settle at least Beech got it certified serious projects!. They even paid full market value to buy back the few that had actually been purchased, not year. A billion dollars worth the possibility of voids or other financial flimflams that have been more positive drag... You pointed out, for overreaching the needs of the wings, they reduce stall by just 5.... Tell you it ’ s “ Eze ” homebuilt designs were popular, looked fast, pushers. On pusher turboprops bad, just that the rigid pieces either side but. Are the Starship is probably the quietest turboprop ever built for and fly a Skymaster and I the... Start, taxi, and certainly not on a little history lesson about the cabin floor clean no... Years and editor-in-chief for 20 of those years beechcraft starship vs piaggio avanti far short of the runway a few months later 1989... Degree ) in Kansas, USA on September 28, 2008 perhaps 3-4 layers of fiber. Efficient, which is swept pounds takeoff weight where he would find some pay phones ( remember those )... Many lap joints in the broader aviation world, dispatch reliability is where it counts what... Called commuter category requirements undoubtedly added even more weight but did not screw customers! Do that with a a select group of us know, its the maintenance and costs!
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